Superiorità Dinamiche delle Ford rispetto agli altri marchi generalisti??

[Guest EC2277]

...

Beh se ricordiamo il vecchio ABS a cinghie che negli anni 80 avevano "inventato" per la Escort abbiamo un quadro abbastanza completo del marchio, che si è trovato una vettura già pronta e l'ha solo "ritarata" vantandosi di averla fatta tutta. :b26

Tempo fa vidi, su La7, un'intervista a Strange McNamara (ex Presidente della Ford e Segretario di Stato sotto Kennedy) nella quale asseriva che, quando arrivò alla Ford, non vi era un solo laureato nei posti chiave dell'azienda e termini quali analisi di mercato, studio della concorrenza e simini non rientravano nel vocabolario aziendale...

[dallas]

Altra cosa che si legge è l'adozione della versione a basse emissioni del 1.2, recentemente apparso anche su Panda con nome ECO, con rapporti allungati, ripari aerodinamici sottoscocca, pneumatici a bassa resistenza di rotolamento, olio cambio a bassa viscosità.

[atomicstation2]

Boh anche a Top Gear parlano della solita superiorità delle Ford. Lo dice Clarckson dal minuto 1:34 parlando della nuova Fiesta...

Is it fun to drive?

"...Volkswagen feel of solidity and a Lotus feel of sportiness..."

"...All Fords have had a driven feel that just you don't get from any other cars from the same price and size..."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NO0hCILrgNA

Mah!

[Matteo B.]

Non entro nella diatriba 5oo/Ka dato che onestamente penso che l'unico-eventuale- merito dei dirigenti Ford è aver deliberato l'assetto più sportivo/efficace per la loro Panda rimarchiata usando i pezzi Fiat:lol:

Tengo altresì a precisare che nuova Fiesta (B platform) e La piattaforma di Focus (C1 platform) sono in gran parte (non dico tutto perchè non ne sono certo) farina del sacco del dipartimento engineering Mazda. (ho le prove documentali di questo)

NB: NON Mondeo-e relative derivate- (che con Mazda non c'entrano) dato che la piattaforma di Mazda6 è usata solo su 2 modelli lincoln/mercury (una è la Milan l'altra ora mi sfugge)

Modificato 9 Dicembre 2008 da Matteo B.

[simonepietro]

ancora più nel dattaglio le modifiche,oltre a quelle già elencate il lavoro più intenso pare sia stato il software dello sterzo e motore (risposta valvola farfalla). Infine qualche accenno interessante su probabili futuri propulsori :

Ford’s original Ka mini-car was in production

for 12 years with barely a change and sold

1.4 million. But these days it’s tougher to sell

A-segment cars than it was in 1996. There are far

more competitors and the expectations buyers

have are higher.

Sharing components and manufacturing with Fiat

made the programme viable. The two companies

agreed on a joint venture to develop the Fiat 500

and the Ka based on the Fiat Panda platform and to

build all three at Fiat’s factory in Poland.

The contract was signed in November 2005 and

a few weeks later, Ford chief programme engineer

Matthias Tonn, just finished with the highperformance

Focus ST, started work on project

B420 – the new Ka.

Fiat and Ford have similar product development

processes. Both rely heavily on virtual engineering

tools, for example. Some project milestones were

different but the two teams found ways around this.

Two companies sharing the engineering didn’t

mean more engineers were available for the project,

however. “Just because you work with another

OEM doesn’t mean that you have endless

resources,” says Tonn.

The firms had clear agreements on dimensions,

what technologies and systems would need to be

packaged, and which engines would be used. Ford

also had its own requirements for styling, driving

dynamics and safety – and these had to be

integrated into the base of the car.

At 3,620mm the new Ka is the same length as the

original but has a shorter wheelbase: 2,300mm

instead of 2,448 mm. Ford says that crash

legislation and Euro NCAP tests necessitated a

bigger front overhang. There were also limits on

how much the Panda platform could be modified

and the wheelbase had to be common with the 500.

Using carry-over components reduced the

amount of testing. Some tests weren’t needed at all

because Fiat had already done them. Others, such

as those on modified parts, were repeated, but not

to the same intensity. This saved a lot of time

compared to other projects, says Tonn.

The time allowed the engineers to concentrate

their development effort on the things that do

most to differentiate the two brands. Styling aside,

the chassis does most to distinguish the Ka from

the 500. Ford customers expect Ford handling.

Much of the hardware, such as the brake system,

is identical. The MacPherson strut/torsion beam

layout is shared but Ford decided early on to

modify or replace all bushes, springs, dampers and

bump stops.

“We didn’t see a complete Fiat 500 until July

2007 so we developed our chassis based on the

Panda platform,” says Tonn.

It was clear that the Fiat’s rear suspension needed

a rethink. It was too soft in roll, affecting the

handling. Stiff springs marred the ride quality. The

axle was the problem.

The solution had to be cost-effective. Ford’s

engineers added a tubular anti-roll bar inside the

torsion beam’s open channel section. The ends are

welded to the beam’s longitudinal members,

increasing stiffness by 70 per cent. “We didn’t

compromise on our driving dynamics,” says Tonn.

The changes meant that the rear springs could be

softened by 30 per cent. The dampers were retuned

to match. And, given the car’s short wheelbase,

these changes are important for the ride quality. At

the Ka’s launch, Ibiza’s sunshine showed off the

car’s pearlescent white paint to great effect, while

the island’s hillside roads and potholed beach tracks

were a good test of its ride and handling balance.

The Ka has an electrically power-assisted system,

which was first seen in a European Ford on the

Fiesta. These systems reduce fuel consumption but

need careful tuning to achieve the weight and feel of

a hydraulic set-up. Much of the work was done at

Ford’s Lommel proving ground in Belgium with

development and chassis engineers sitting together

in the same cars during the test runs.

Much of the software tuning was done on the fly,

says Tonn: “The development engineer’s feedback

goes straight to the guy with the laptop. That’s how

you get good software calibration.”

Steering column geometry was altered too,

reorienting the universal joints through 10°.

Changing the input angle from the steering wheel

changed the Ka’s steering function curve compared

to the 500’s and provided more precise on-centre

feel and better response.

Although on separate teams, the engineers

responsible for the Fiesta’s steering had desks next

to the Ka team, so there was a constant exchange of

knowledge. Tyres for both small Fords were

developed in parallel too.

Optimising the suspension bushes gets a lot out

of these relatively inexpensive components. Ford

has worked hard at this in recent years and a lot of

development is done in-house. Ford says doing the

simulation and testing in its own labs gets results

more quickly than relying solely on suppliers.

“It gives us better understanding of their

behaviour,” says Ford of Europe’s vehicle dynamics

manager Norbert Kessing. “You need a certain

stiffness to give the vehicle a controlled feeling,

especially in terms of lateral dynamics, for steering

and handling. But we’ve learnt how to tune them so

they also provide the longitudinal softness we need

for ride comfort.”

The Ka and the 500 use the same engines and

five-speed manual gearboxes. Both have equal

power, torque and fuel consumption figures but

Ford modified the ECU’s throttle maps within Fiat’s

base calibrations for the desired performance feel.

The 1,242cc 8V gasoline engine develops

51kW/102Nm, near-identical to the old Ka’s

1,297cc Ford engine, but the CO2 emissions are just

119g/km instead of 147g/km. The Ka will get a

diesel for the first time too, emitting just 112g/km.

The 1,248cc 16V common-rail unit produces

55kW/145Nm but keeping it on the torque requires

frequent gear changes: the fixed geometry turbo

blunts transient response. Fiat’s Grande Punto has a

variable geometry turbo version developing 190Nm

that would work well in the Ka.

A very low-emission ECOnetic version is coming,

likely to feature a recalibrated diesel engine coupled

to a taller final drive, cutting fuel consumption even

further. The Ka could also get Fiat’s high-tech twocylinder

gasoline engine, due in the 500 shortly.

Tonn isn’t saying whether Ford has considered this

option but the turbo twin would suit the Ka. “Any

new technology is interesting,” he says.

Future development is likely to focus on fuel

consumption reduction. Fiat is working on

stop/start systems for the 500. Tonn says that

platforms are always designed with technologies

such as these in mind.

Application engineering effort shouldn’t be

underestimated. If it were a case of just buying the

bits from suppliers, everybody would have them.

“You can’t just take a low rolling resistance tyre –

these require a lot of testing first,” Tonn says. “They

have to be proven for safe day-to-day use in all

regions and climates. This takes time.”

Repeating the success of the original Ka’s 12-year

run is unlikely but Tonn is optimistic. “The design

grows on you,” he says. “We don’t believe that the

car will be replaced in four or five years – it will

have a long lifecycle.”

Either way, the Ka is a good example of how

OEM partnerships can produce attractive,

affordable small cars from a common base without

compromising brand identity. It’s a strategy that

could become a lot more common

tratto da ae

Modificato 28 Dicembre 2008 da simonepietro

[ISO-8707]

In fin dei conti hanno solo ridotto il fastidioso (per quanto mi riguarda) rollio che attanaglia tutte le FIAT...

[TonyH]

In fin dei conti hanno solo ridotto il fastidioso (per quanto mi riguarda) rollio che attanaglia tutte le FIAT...

[Cosimo]

per quello poco che l'ho guiidato il cinquino rolla molto meno di quello che si dica qui. Anzi, al limite le piccole del gruppozzo sono più ferme di altre marche.

Come dice giustamente TonyH però se le si irrigidisce, alla prima manovra un po' disinvolta la ragazzina di turno se la fa nelle mutandine..

a proposito, la diversa taratura dello sterzo è dovuta semlicemente al fatto che quello con city della 5oo costava troppo secondo ford.

[TonyH]

Come dice giustamente TonyH però se le si irrigidisce, alla prima manovra un po' disinvolta la ragazzina di turno se la fa nelle mutandine..

[Cosimo]

in effetti le mutande ormai sono un'opinione. Sui popò giusti tanto di cappello, ma su quelli ipertrofici sono un dolore per gli occhi..