Il futuro dell'auto (elettrica)

[shadow_line]

15 minuti fa, v13 scrive:

Tra l'altro il concetto di decrescita non sarebbe neanche necessario, basterebbe una crescita "qualitativa" anziché stupidamente "quantitativa"

 

esatto, basterebbe fare le cose con calma e senza ingordigia

3 minuti fa, TonyH scrive:

 

Questo lo puoi dire a un occidentale. 

Ma a tutti quei popoli che il benessere non l'ancora sfiorato glielo dici tu? "scusate ci siamo mangiati anche la vostra parte". 

 

Spoiler, non sarebbe a lieto fine. 

 

vero, ma si stanno moltiplicando troppo in fretta, nessuno potrà mai offrire un livello elevato di benessere e consumo a tutta quella gente, sono, siamo, troppi..

[nucarote]

4 minuti fa, v13 scrive:

 

stiamo sicuramente accarezzando l'OT ma è anche vero che alcuni dati per contestualizzare possono essere utili

Si ma credo che una pagina di messaggi abbia dato il contesto necessario, per cui direi chiudere l'OT.  

[4200blu]

1 ora fa, v13 scrive:

A essere del tutto onesto, neanche l'idroelettrico né l'eolico sono senza conseguenze.

 

Esatto...la terza assiome di Newton dice "actio = reactio"

Frenare  e influizare i flussi di aria con parchi di vento in grande modo sicuramente non e senza conseguenza per l'ambiente o tempo in genere. Lo stesso valido per enormi laghi artificiali come la diga delle tre gole.

 

[vince-991]

Per quanto mi riguarda l'auto e' un mezzo di trasporto. Se potessi ne farei anche a meno. Passare alle BEV per me non sarebbe un problema se non facessi considerazioni di tipo economico. Nel senso che 20-22 mila euro sono il massimo che sono disposto a spendere, non perche' non posso ma solo perche' non voglio. Quindi le auto seg C elettriche attualmente disponibili costano troppo. Quando si creeranno le condizioni che ritengo giuste passero' al BEV anche perche' e' questo il futuro del settore auto. Volenti o nolenti. Senza contare il fatto che gli investimenti sull'idrogeno vanno avanti e e' probabile che avremo una diffusione anche di auto con celle a combustibile. Oggi abbiamo auto a benzina, diesel, gpl, metano e nessuno si pone il problema dei diversi carburanti.

[J-Gian]

5 ore fa, v13 scrive:

ci contavo sul fatto che l'OT lo stessi tirando avanti tu  

 

Mi sono auto assegnato un punto d'infrazione 😅 

 

Ho spostato un po' di messaggi qui: 

 

[4200blu]

Why it's reality check time for the EV skateboard chassis

Hyundai and Ford were initially captivated by examples of the thin rolling chassis from startups

 

The idea of the self-contained EV skateboard chassis has become so alluring that startups, suppliers and even automakers are marketing them as plug-and-play solutions on which customers can simply add a body, also called "top hat."

But like many catchy ideas on the path to electromobility, this one is also stumbling as it meets the hard reality of going from vision to vehicle development and manufacturing.

The growth of the skateboard concept in the past two to three years is partly due to its disruptive potential. Proponents talk about the freedoms that come from replacing the internal combustion engine with a solution that neatly positions the batteries and electric drivetrain components into a comparatively thin rolling chassis.

With no engine in the way, theoretically any "top hat" or body can be attached.

The benefits to automakers seem obvious.

'Reduced costs'

"They don't have to start from scratch, which means they can reduce costs and time to market," Marco Kollmeier, Benteler's head of e-mobility, said last year about the supplier's Electric Drive System 2.0 skateboard rolling chassis, developed with Robert Bosch

Many were convinced.

Canoo's EV skateboard was a "a self-contained unit that can be paired with any cabin design," Hyundai said early last year in a statement when announcing it would partner with the startup to co-develop underpinnings for small passenger vehicles based on Canoo's design.

Canoo has described its dedicated skateboard as being superior to so-called "electromodding," in which electric drivetrains are fitted to platforms designed for internal combustion engines.

Around the same time Ford Motor announced it would develop an electric Lincoln based on the skateboard running chassis created by startup Rivian, a company in which Ford already had a stake.

The list of companies marketing electric platforms now includes Canadian supplier Magna International, Formula One offshoot Williams Advanced Engineering, Taiwanese electronics contract manufacturer Foxconn, Zhejiang Geely Holding and its Lotus brand, Israeli startup REE Automotive, and U.S. automaker Karma Automotive.

The largest player in the EV platform business in terms of company size is Volkswagen Group, which has actively sought customers for its MEB electric architecture. Ford signed up and is developing one and possibly two EVs based on MEB starting in 2023.

Long history

The idea of the transferrable chassis goes back 100 years or more to the days of coachbuilders who would take a running chassis from manufacturers such as Bentley and offer different bodies on top.

The concept has never really gone away in the world of trucks, but it was revived for passenger cars in 2002 by General Motors, who built the Hy-Wire fuel cell concept following the same principle.

The 11-inch thick skateboard rolling chassis contained the drivetrain while the body was attached at 10 mounting points. In the future, GM posited, owners could drive to their nearest dealer and swap bodies.

The idea was revived again in 2018 by Swiss automotive visionary Rinspeed for the Snap, an electric chassis concept that could take multiple commercially oriented bodies.

The customers are certainly out there.

In February Jaguar Land Rover announced it was looking outside the company for an electric platform that could underpin EVs for the reborn Jaguar brand.

Fisker has signed up to use underpinnings from Magna for its Ocean electric SUV, and then announced it was exploring a partnership with Foxconn to use its skateboard for a second vehicle.

Many additional factors

It's a tempting to believe it can work, said David Twohig, a freelance engineer who has worked as chief engineer at Alpine and chief technical officer for Chinese-German automaker Byton.

For one thing, manufacturers need to increase their economies of scale. "It's simply mathematical. The money you need to spend to a develop a new platform is mind blowing," Twohig told Automotive News Europe.

Working with a partner or getting the platform or running chassis from a third party is also unlikely to dilute the brand. "It's sad to say but one electric motor is much the same as another," he said.

But the idea that customers can simply plug their own body on top of someone else's skateboard running chasis is simplistic in the extreme, Twohig believes.

It would compromise a range of key developmental areas such as crash protection, heating and ventilation, noise vibration and harshness (NVH) and handling.

"If you're carrying human beings in a vehicle, those whole-vehicle attributes are still of primary importance," he said. "[Is the argument that] the only thing that is important is the skateboard? I don't buy it."

Perhaps the biggest hurdle would be integrating modern-day electronics and electrical (EE) architectures. "It's massively complex and expensive, and most platform-sharing projects usually run into difficulty on the EE architecture, more than on the mechanical side," Twohig said.

The idea of the transferrable skateboard runs counter to the development and design process for a new platform, argues Christophe Cazes, former R&D director at Spanish metal parts supplier Gestamp and currently group innovation director at venture capital firm Novares.

"It's impossible to distinguish what you do on the platform from what you do on the top hat," he said.

For a car, it's difficult to improve on the metal monocoque design in terms of cost, crash protection, weight and driving dynamics. "A scalable unibody is the best way to get the most out of the material," Cazes said.

Connecting the body to the chassis is another problem for skateboard designs, he added.

The rise of the skateboard pitch is connected to the need of startups to raise money, Cazes believes. "It's an easy way for them to convince the financial markets they have a solution," he said.

Reality check

All the challenges linked to skateboard running chassis appears to have caused a reality check. Ford has canceled the Lincoln EV on the Rivian skateboard and has yet to commit to putting a vehicle from its namesake brand on these underpinnings. Ford announced last week that a new, dedicated EV architecture would underpin battery-electric versions of the Explorer and Lincoln Aviator crossovers, as well as midsize pickups and "rugged SUVs" that will go into production within the decade.

Meanwhile, Canoo CEO Tony Aquila indicated that the Hyundai deal is also over on an investor call in March, saying that the company was "deemphasizing" its contract work. "We are not trying to be an assembler of parts. We are creating IP [intellectual property]," he said.

Williams Advanced Engineering meanwhile has re-thought its skateboard chassis offering, first launched in 2017. It is now partnering with VW Group subsidiary Italdesign to offer a complete engineering service including top-hat design for automakers that need high-end EVs.

Williams made the switch after learning from potential customers that they felt there would still be a lot to do after buying the EVX skateboard.

"Anybody working with us would have had to do a lot of engineering to get to a product," Paul McNamara, technical director for Williams Advanced Engineering, told journalists in April. "So, here we have done almost all the heavy lifting earlier on between ourselves and Italdesign."

Meanwhile, Foxconn's MIH electric platform, announced last October, combines hardware with software to make the integration of the EE architecture easier. The maker of Apple's iPhone wants its solution to be as ubiquitous to the EV industry as Google's Android operating system is to the smartphone and tablet sectors, it said in a statement.

"By allowing developers access to key technologies and tools for developing EVs on MIH, Foxconn reduces the entry barriers to the industry," it said.

An anti-skateboard solution

Israeli startup REE meanwhile is pitching itself as a provider of technology that genuinely can create a flexible electric platform.

The company's so-called "corner module" packs a wheel, motor and suspension into small enough an area to liberate far more space for a van or ride-hailing car than a skateboard platform.

"Skateboard platforms are exactly like ICE [internal combustion engine] platforms. Look at the structure," REE CEO Daniel Barel told Automotive News Europe.

"A monocoque is probably the least modular thing you can think of, so the industry is now trying to have a skateboard that will just be slightly modular and then put different top hats on that." he said. "But you cannot change anything. The top hat is very limited because the chassis is the limiting factor."

In April REE announced a partnership with Toyota-owned truck maker Hino to develop modular electric vehicles both for commercial and ride-hailing purposes, with prototypes planned for 2022.

Perfect for LCVs?

Commercial vehicles are one area the skateboard approach makes sense, engineer Twohig said.

"I don't believe in it for passenger cars, but I do believe in it for the LCV [light commercial vehicle] world where you are less dependent on the quality of the upper body and when you can simplify the EE architecture," he said. "I do believe it's possible to relatively simply plug a 1-ton delivery van or pickup or a food truck into a rolling chassis."

EV startups using a skateboard design for vans look to be thriving.

Rivian is developing an EV van for Amazon and UK startup Arrival is building a van for UPS. Both products are due to launch next year.

Benteler in April announced an electric chassis designed for minibuses, although it says its Electric Drive System skateboard is still being used to develop electric passenger cars by Chinese automaker Evergrande, a spokesman said.

As with mobility-as-a-service, autonomous driving, final-mile delivery or any of the other disruptions to automotive that are taking far longer to materialize than initially promised, the plug-and-play EV skateboard chassis idea is another that's facing its own reality check. But behind the breathless investor pitches, there remains an idea that still has merit as the old order changes.

 

(ANE)

 

[xtom]

Interessante questa dissertazione sulle piattaforme skateboard.

 

Tutti ne parlano, ma nella realtà le cose sono un po’ più complesse, con la situazione assurda che oggi si fanno tranquillamente auto elettriche senza skateboard e quando questi skateboard saranno pronti per la produzione di massa, le batterie occuperanno meno spazio e non sarà necessario avere gli skateboard neanche per avere maggior autonomia.

 

Essendo poi la conversione all’elettrico molto graduale, passando da HEV, PHEV, EREV, è più redditizio avere una piattaforma multienergy, che due piattaforme diverse e due modelli diversi.

[4200blu]

Europe risks wasting €27bn battery opportunity with weak CO2 targets - study

The EU and the UK risk wasting €27bn in battery investments if they fail to strengthen car and van CO2 emission standards, analysis from Transport & Environment (T&E) shows. 

 

While investors have poured billions into the battery industry, and Europe is set to have enough batteries to power over 90% of all new vehicle sales by 2030, a slowdown in electric vehicle sales would jeopardise Europe’s chance of becoming the global leader in one of the twenty-first century’s key technologies. 

Europe’s surging EV market has resulted in plans for 38 battery gigafactories, totalling over 1000gWh of output and almost €40bn in investment. Yet, weak CO2 standards between 2022 and 2029 give carmakers little incentive to increase the sales of electric cars until 2030. This will result in well over half of the expected output having no market. This is a missed opportunity to boost Europe’s economy and secure thousands of skilled jobs, says T&E.

Julia Poliscanova, senior director for vehicles and emobility at T&E, said: “The battery industry is successfully responding to Europe’s e-mobility ambitions, yet EU policy-makers are failing to provide regulatory certainty and guarantee an adequate market for electric vehicles. The EU and UK must raise CO2 standards throughout the decade to avoid wasting billions of investments and derailing the battery boom.” 

 

Planned battery production could be almost three times higher than the minimum demand in 2025-2030, according to analysis by T&E. Under current regulations, battery demand will be a mere 174 GWh in 2025, rising to 485 GWh in 2030, when a more ambitious CO2 standard finally enters into force. This is far below the anticipated 462 GWh of battery capacity by 2025, growing to 1,144 GWh by 2030. Much of the excess battery supply can be solved by raising the 2025 CO2 reduction target to 25% and setting an additional target of -40% for 2027, says T&E.

To date, 17 of the 38 planned gigafactories have secured full funding, worth €25.5bn. A further 10 projects have secured partial financing, including many that are key to Europe’s domestic battery autonomy such as Britishvolt in the UK, Italvolt in Italy, Freyr in Norway, and Basquevolt-Nabatt in Spain. An additional 11 projects - including Volkswagen’s four gigafactories - have recently been announced but no data are yet available. Higher CO2 targets would directly benefit the newer wave of predominantly European battery projects.

Julia Poliscanova added: “While higher targets would secure investments today, achieving and maintaining global leadership is much bigger than this. Battery manufacturing is the most valuable part of the EV supply chain and with China and the US also pumping huge amounts of cash into battery making, Europe’s wasted investments this decade will be nothing compared to the opportunity missed this century.” 

The EU is expected to propose new car and van CO2 targets in July. T&E recommends that the EU increases the 2025 target and sets an additional binding target for 2027. All petrol and diesel cars engines should be phased out by 2035 at the latest, says the group.

 

( © 2021 European Federation for Transport and Environment AISBL )

 

[xtom]

Cingolani:

 

Troppe Euro 0. Il ministro, inoltre, ha ribadito le sue idee sull’auto elettrica, nonostante sia stato criticato da più parti per alcune espressioni di forte scetticismo nei confronti dei veicoli alla spina. In realtà, l’ex scienziato intende privilegiare un approccio pragmatico che tenga conto di tutta una serie di fattori contingenti. “Dobbiamo essere realisti, la transizione ecologica non si realizza in un attimo: servono almeno dieci anni”, ha avvertito Cingolani, facendo presente che “in Italia circolano 13 milioni di vetture Euro 0 e non possiamo dire alle famiglie 'da domani comprate tutti Tesla’". “Inoltre - ha proseguito - se pure avessimo da domani veicoli tutti elettrici, non sapremmo dove ricaricarli. L'obiettivo sacrosanto della progressiva e definitiva elettrificazione del trasporto va perseguito con un approccio concreto e pratico che tenga conto della sostenibilità sociale, dell'aggravio dei costi per le famiglie e della sfida tecnologica”. "L'obiettivo di ridurre le emissioni di CO2 del 55% entro il 2030 richiede un mix di realismo e una scommessa tecnologica sul futuro", ha rimarcato Cingolani. "Dobbiamo procedere con l'elettrificazione del parco auto e far decollare la vettura alimentata a idrogeno. Il Pnrr, però, non fa miracoli: sul piano culturale, per esempio, vediamo circolare in strada troppe automobili con un unico passeggero, il conducente, e questo è un problema".

 

https://www.quattroruote.it/news/ecologia/2021/06/14/cingolani_lavoriamo_al_polo_italiano_delle_batterie_per_le_elettriche_serviranno_10_anni.html

 

In pratica la soluzione di Cingolani è questa

 

 

[v13]

beh, non mi sembrano dichiarazioni così assurde, in particolare l'ultima frase